The legalization of marijuana is somehwere in that list.
Taking a hint from the latest sex scandal headlines, I thought I would ask the committee about how the reformed US economy and justice system sees prostitution.
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It's always struck me as a sound idea. My gut tells me it would severely reduce illegal sex slave trafficking. My gut also tells me it might help curb the spread of STDs. Then again, my gut likes to have it's wang worked on, legally. My gut is like my governor - R.I.P., Spitz.
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ReplyDeleteHmm...My gut could be wrong. From the Wiki Encyclopedia: An article in Le Monde in 1997 found that 80% of prostitutes in the Netherlands were foreigners and 70% had no immigration papers, suggesting that at least some were victims of sex trafficking, forced prostitution.
ReplyDeleteSeems like if it was all above board you could do some serious cracking down on illegal shenanigans*, though.
*I apologize for referring to crimes like human trafficking as "shenanigans." I am in no way trying to trivialize it's severity.
Yeah it kind of makes it seem like I posed the question just as a trap, but I do think your gut is wrong.
ReplyDeleteAnecdotally, the prostitutes in Paris and Berlin (where it's legal/officially tolerated) that I come across seem to often be of Eastern European origin, and quite young. In Paris they were often North African.
Whether or not they emigrate legally and willingly to become prostitutes I don't know.
As for STD control, I think you are probably right though.
Apparently during the World Cup in Berlin there were literally 10-20,000 prostitutes imported for this giant brothel they built near the stadium.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to draw a line and define willing participant in an occupation that is almost always chosen out of dire economic necessity.
There are consenting adults comfortable with sex for money that use it to supplement another income or pay for school, and then there are 17 year olds who would presumably be kidnapped and brought to the US from Latin America or farther, I would wager.
suddenly i became "anonymous."
ReplyDeleteafter already attributing my name to a post that made it sound like i was a huge partaker in euro-prostitutes anyways.
Probably most of my kindred spirits, politically, would agree with you Chris. But I don't. For one thing, I'm just not ready to formally recognize sex as something that can be bought and sold. I think we need less things "commodified," not more.
ReplyDeleteMore practically, the best argument I know of in favor of legalizing prostitution is that it would allow us to ensure that certain standards of safety (both medically and otherwise) and perhaps collective bargaining rights are observed. It would also, so the argument goes, free prostitutes from the slave-like subordination and violent intimidation they suffer at the hands of their "pimps." If these arguments were in fact demonstrably accurate, then I would reluctantly support legalization. If anyone has a hard study showing that it is, in fact, accurate, please direct me to it.
Personally I'm not convinced that legalizing prostitution would have this effect. As I often have to tell the free market theorists, their theory may sound theoretically plausible, but it still must be empirically established to form the basis of sound policy. My (admittedly limited) understanding of legalized prostitution in the Netherlands is that it has successfully maintained certain standards of safety with respect to Dutch prostitutes, but that the enormous influx of "customers" has drawn in Eastern European prostitutes, and has thus created a vast underground prostitution market that suffers from the same ills as black market prostitution does elsewhere. As they say, supply can sometimes create its own demand. (Note: I just saw Casey's Le Monde reference after I started writing this. "That, that just about says it.").
So the way I see it, legalized prostitution would probably lead to an increase in demand (i.e., an "outward shift in the demand curve," since guys can buy sex without fear of criminal prosecution), and if the safety regulations actually have any bite and/or recognize prostitute unions (and therefore cut into "pimps'" profits), there will be a strong incentive to meet that extra demand with the same kind of underground prostitution we object to today. If this is what actually happens, the way I see it we've allowed something immoral, increased its prevalence, and accomplished nothing in terms of prostitute safety. And I highly doubt in this context that the poor urban prostitutes or the foreign sex slaves are gonna somehow get the "good," recognized and protected, prostitution jobs.
I would also say that prostitution should normally not be considered an imprisonable offense in my perfect world (unless slavery/violent intimidation, etc. are involved).
But this is all kind of beside the point for Spitzmann. More than anything, he has disgraced himself by patronizing an illegal business entity when he made his whole reputation as a crusader against financial crimes. I think that it was right for him to resign, and it was appropriate for both Democrats and Republicans to call for his resignation. He has discredited his whole (laudable) cause. It's a shame, I really liked him.
Yeah, I forgot about that World Cup Mega-brothel. I heard some awful reports about that.
ReplyDeleteI think you're right, Ryan. I've always thought that legalized prostitution could bring unions and quality health standards to the profession. That just doesn't seem to be the case in Europe. I doubt we'd be able to have any more success here.
Yeah I'm not sure I am a supporter of legalization either.
ReplyDeleteAlthough one has to wonder. Spitzer's wife seems to be a pretty intelligent and attractive women, so he probably strayed from her because the stuff at home just wasn't kinky enough.
Funny that the champion of a laudable cause can be slain just because he and his wife don't have an environment in which he can say to her "hey I like it like this."
Maybe with that in mind we should consider a liberalization of the sex education culture in America which would enable horny people to voice their needs and facilitate people's getting it on.
It works for apes.
I don't know if it is Kosher to plug other blogs on here, but there's an interview with a call-girl on "Freakonomics" at the NYTimes where they discuss all of the above.
ReplyDeleteI would post the link but the columns are too small.
You're right, Chris. The Mrs. seems perfectly attractive for a middle age woman. As an acquaintance of mine rightly noted, one-time sex encounters "aren't any better than masturbation." It is definitely a shame if this whole mess is a just a matter of Spitfire's unfulfilled need to lick asses.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm not condoning a 'side thing.' Only a 'side thing' isn't necessarily political career suicide while becoming a john and getting caught is.
ReplyDeleteUnmet Demand to Lick Asses =>
ReplyDeleteMarket failure =>
Centralized Planning =>
Socialism
Q.E.D.
I've never licked asses myself. However, I understand it to be like some kind of beautiful dream. Perhaps in his line of work he mostly meets educated, self-respecting women who neither want to lick Fitzsimmons' ass or to have their ass licked by Fitzsimmons. So maybe a side-thing wasn't a feasible option.
ReplyDeleteAnd side-things can get quite dark. I'm reminded here of Marv Albert. He found a partner to satisfy his biting needs but was charged with forcible sodomy when he tried to break it off. According to the Wikiverse, he pled guilty to misdemeanor assault and the felony sodomy charges were dropped. Fitzhume may have had Marv Albert in the back of his mind when he decided to pay for a call-girl to join him in his all-night ass-licking sessions as opposed to finding consensual and free partner.
ReplyDeleteI Googled "Fitzhume" for the f of it and this was the first hit: http://fitzhume.redirectme.net/
ReplyDeleteGood point about Marv Albert. That was probably worse than getting a prostitute.
ReplyDeleteNice link too.
By th way, is "Fitzhume" a "Spies Like Us" reference? I think that's the only place I've ever heard that name. I'm not even sure it is a real name.
ReplyDeleteThat's the only time I've ever heard it, as well. Do HTML tags work here?
ReplyDeleteApparently it's hyphenated.
It's all about power. As men accumulate power (through prestige, fame, or money), they (and the rest of the public) tend to think that they can do whatever they want. It's disgusting. Eliot Spitzer slept with a 22 year old abused runaway girl (4 years older than his daughter). Some men won't admit it in public, but they believe that what Eliot Spitzer did isn't a big deal.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ryan that legalizing prostitution wouldn't necessarily solve any of the problems associated with it. Prostitution involves men with money using it to get sex from women who don't have it. This will continue if it is legal. And I'm not comfortable at all legalizing it. I also think the cheaper black market is exactly what would happen.
All men who have sisters, mothers or friends should care about the effect that selling sex for money has on the psyche of a woman individually and on women in general. It furthers the power imbalance between the sexes and is detrimental to individuals, couples, and families. It furthers the idea that women are not people with brains and feelings, but bodies to be used as men wish to use them. Why is it preferable to hire a hooker rather than pick a girl up at a bar? Because it requires men to do no work to get laid and because it allows men to be able to do whatever they want with the hooker because they "paid for her." Sick.
I take some pride in having stirred up so much debate.
ReplyDeleteThe moral implications of legalizing or tolerating prostitution are certainly too heavy for a lot of us, probably myself included, to handle.
But if as Julie suggests--and I second--we ought to craft policy that addresses not only economic and racial inequity but also works towards eliminating the gender gap, we ought to consider that a whole host of other sticky debates to follow.
As far as negative effects on a women's psyche go, the advertising industry is probably going to have to take a huge hit of some kind. Although it's still better in the States than in latin countries like France and Italy, where advertising does a good job turning most of the women there into diet-obsessed nutcases, the US still has some work to do.
On another note, if legalized prostitution doesn't fly because it invites emotionally precarious people into an unhealthy feedback loop of obsessive behavior and debt, all in search of riches, how do we feel about slot machines and gambling?
I just heard an interesting idea. I hear that in Sweden it's illegal to buy sex, but not illegal to sell it. Some say this works to target the most dangerous people (the pimps and whatnot), instead of the victims (debatable term I guess).
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